Thursday, March 15, 2012

Understanding the Bengali Kulin Brahmin Caste

I am posting this so that someday Tara and Kaya have somewhere to look up their maternal heritage. Of course being only half Kulin Brahmin makes you not Kulin (pun intended) at all, nevertheless. Also after having this explained to me I now begin to understand those old bengali movies where a pretty young thing of a girl is forced into marriage to an old doddering man with one foot in the grave, promptly to be followed by the torturous life of a widow at age 15 on! Of course, re-marriage was never allowed for women. Joys of being s Kulin Brahmin girl must have been few other than the prestige and education made available at a younger age which was equal by few others.




Edit:  I do want to make clear my stand on all of this since many people comment on this post: people are people. Brahmins are no better than non-Brahmins, Hindus are no better than non-Hindus or agnostics or atheists. The only true determinant of humanity and goodness is how we treat people, especially people different than ourselves, people with no power over us. This post is not about celebrating a caste, its about knowing about myself and the things that have shaped my family history. Both good and bad.

I am told I am of Sanyal (Vatsav/Vatsya) decent on my father's side whose last name is Chakraborty and on my mothers paternal side I am a Maitra (Kashyap) from Bangladesh and on her maternal side I am a Roy, so a Rarhi Brahmin.

Since we are paternalistic society that makes me a Rarhi Brahmin (east Bengal) of Vatsya (pronounced Bot-so) Gotra. Well thank god for modernity, no one cares that I married a Canadian!

so here it is, the Kulin Brahmin system explained...


Tara and Kaya my beautiful and fortunate little half breeds!
They are hiding out under the couch in this picture as Kaya learns to scooch backwards.



Kulin Brahmins

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kulin Brahmins are those Brahmins in Bengal who can trace themselves to the five families of Kanauj (Kanyakubja), Uttar Pradesh who migrated to Bengal. They were given immense power during the reign of the Sena/Sen kings who were staunch Hindus and did not encourage the practice of any other religion. The five brahmin families were differentiated by their gotras. The Kanaujiya/kanyakubj brahmins who settled in Bengal had the following gotras: (Shandilya, Bhardwaj, Kashyap, Swavarna and Vatsav/Vatsya); these gotras denote the Rishis whose followers the brahmins were.

Some of these kuleen families settled in Barendrabhoom and some in Rarhbhoom in what is present day Bangladesh. The descendants of these families became known as Rarhi and Barendra brahmins as per their settlement.

The common surnames of Rarhi brahmin family are (ranked equally):

• Mukherjee / Mukhopadhyay (Bharadwaja)

• Banerjee / Bandyopadhyay (Shandilya)

• Chatterjee / Chattopadhyay (Kashyap)

• Ganguly / Gangopadhyay(Shavarna)

• Khanna / (khan)

The common surnames of Barendra brahmin family are (ranked equally):

• Sanyal (Vatsav/Vatsya)

• Lahiri (Shandilya)

• Bagchi (Shandilya)

• Moitra (Kashyap)

Apart from these many others like Chakroborty, Bhattacharya, Ray/Roy, Roy Choudhury, Majumdar, etc., which are, indeed, titles conferred on certain privileged families from among the above mentioned surnames, could also be Kulin if they are Rarhi Brahmins. Khan and Chowdhury are titles awarded to many kuleen brahmin families because of their ancestral rule or profession.

The connection between the saraswat brahmins and kanaujiya/kanyakubj brahmins is this that during the Aryan migration the saraswat brahmins, called thus because they lived along the banks of the river saraswati, which began to disappear underground during Parushurama's time. These brahmins migrated to south, north and northwestern parts of the subcontinent.

Gaud Saraswat Brahmins The kashmiri pandits are of the same lineage as these saraswats and consider themselves to be pure Aryan because their descendants didn't mingle with the indigenous people. Those that settled in north India also went to what is present day Uttar Pradesh, where Kannauj is located From here they migrated to Gaud or Gour. From Gour, a small community comprising about seven families migrated to the South of the subcontinent.They were known as Gaud Saraswat Brahmins.

Kulin Pratha (Kulin System) was initiated by the Sena kings in Bengal whereby the kings gave land and power to the Brahmins to promote vedic principles in the society, leading to a strict and disciplined lifestyle. Simultaneously they also enforced strict rules on family and marriage rules on Brahmins, leading to the birth of Kulin Brahmins, an apex section/class/caste of the society. It was said that a person is Kulin if and only if all the 14 generations on his father's and mother's side were Kulin. This created a very problematic divide in the society. This was also opposed by many Brahmins. Yet it became a norm, probably because the kulin Brahmins got lured by the newly acquired power in the society.

Kulin Pratha was a very strict practice leading to many problems in Bengali society. If a daughter of a Kulin family doesn't wed in a Kulin family then the parent family loses their Kulin identity. These led to several problems like young girls getting married to old Kulin married men out of desperation of finding a Kulin groom. It was not uncommon for Kulin grooms to have several wives, most of which stayed at their parents home, just to be wed (for the sake of the ritual) to a Kulin and hence maintain their Kulin status.

Nowadays many Brahmins have shunned their Kulin identity and have mixed equally with all the Brahmins and non Brahmins in Bengal and other parts of India. It is hard to state the current stand of these families on Kulin Pratha. It may surface during the marriage process, but the young are not concerned.

Marriages and gotras

Marriages within the gotra ("swagotra" marriages) are banned under the rule of exogamy in the traditional matrimonial system. People within the gotra are regarded as kin and marrying such a person would be thought of as incest.

A much more common characteristic of south Indian Hindu society is permission for marriage between cross-cousins (children of brother and sister). Thus, a man is allowed to marry his maternal uncle's daughter or his paternal aunt's daughter, but is not allowed to marry his father's brother's daughter. She would be considered a parallel cousin who is treated as a sister.

According to strict Hindu tradition, the term gotra is used only for the lineages of Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya varnas. Brahminical Gotra relates directly to the original seven "saptarishis" Rishis of the Vedas. Later, the term "gotra" was associated with broader meanings of any lineage, Brahmin or otherwise.

A common mistake is to consider gotra to be synonymous with clan or kula. A kula is basically a set of people following similar cultural rituals, often worshipping the same God (the Kula-Devata - the God of the clan). Kula has nothing to do with lineage or caste. In fact, it is possible to change one's kula, based on one's faith or Ishta-deva.

It is common practice in preparation for Hindu marriage to inquire about the Kula-Gotra (meaning Clan-Lineage) of the bride and bridegroom before approving the marriage. In almost all Hindu families, marriages within the same gotra are prohibited, since people with same gotra are considered to be siblings. But marriage within the kula is allowed and even preferred.


For commenters: Please note, do not post as *Anonymous*, I will likely delete your comment. The comments here are moderated by me, before they appear on the screen and I will not be permitting any rants or foul language nor anything I consider offensive.

I am no expert - if you want to learn more about your gotra, start here.

97 comments:

  1. This seems to be one of my most visited posts. I wonder if the traffic wanders in for matrimonial research?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'm actually here to research for Anthropology at college. It's just a coincidence I'm Bengali:) Thanks for the detailed explanation!

      Delete
    2. Tina. The correct definition of kulin is very difficult. It suffices to say that all the descendants of the 5 brahmins from Kanauj are not really Kulin. These five between them had over 50 sons (possibly from multiple wives). And the sons again (presumably) had several sons each. However, Ballal Sen, the king who started kulinism declared (after suitable testing), only 31 of these grandsons (if my recollection is correct) to be Kulin, meaning superior in terms of qualities. The rest were declared to be Vamsaja (by descent) Brahmins. I think Ballal Sen had intended the process of testing to go on indefinitely but once he died, the Brahmins, in their corruption, declared their sons and other patrilineal descendants to be Kulin. Obsessive kulinism, which you alluded to, began only in the 1480s (I think 1482) although I don't know why. It is from this period that it became mandatory for kulin brahmins to marry only kulin brahmins and for each family to maintain records of all marriages to establish this. I was intrigued to discover that the detail in my mother's family history starts from the 1480s, when thbite family lived in Khardaha but couldn't explain why it started only in the 1480s until I separately discovered the bit about obsessive Kulinism and its commencement.

      Kulin Brahmins, as you rightly mentioned, are drawn from either the Rarhi Panchagotra or the Barendra categories. These are geographical terms. Most of the Rarh is in West Bengal but some areas like Jessore fall within Bangladesh. Barendra refers to the northern districts of Bengal, comprising Dinajpur, Rangpur, Mymensingh, Bogura, Rajshahi, Pabna, Natore etc. If you are familiar with the geography, you will realise that Dinajpur plus the adjoining districts of Malda and Jalpaiguri fall within India. The rest are in Bangladesh. So part of Barendra is in India.

      The name-gotra connection within Rarhi is as follows: Banerjee=Sandilya. Mukerjee=Bharadvaja. Chatterjee=Kashyap. Ganguly=Savarna. Ghoshal=Vatsa. I do not know the exact equivalents among Barendra Brahmins but I do know that Sanyal=Vatsa and Lahiri=Sandilya. As to what Bhaduri, Bagchi and Maitra are, I don't know.

      I too have never heard of non Brahmin Chakrabortys in Bengal. That is not to say that they cannot or do not exist. But I have never heard of any.
      Finally, I wholeheartedly endorse your view that all this is of no consequence today and is best ignored. However, I am a great collector of trivia and this forms part of my anthropological collection. Neither my sister nor I have married within the community and she, like you, has two American daughters with a German father.

      Delete
    3. Thanks you Arjun, I really appreciate your input as other who stumble upon here will as well!

      Delete
  2. Came here searching for something but nice work because me being a Kulin Brahmin(originally Ganguly but got Chakrabort-my grandfather got it fromZaminder).But Imust tell you that renaissance of Bengal happened because of these Kulin Brahmins started by Rammohan Roy(originally Bannerjee.

    Even today most of our intellectuals are coming from these Brahmin communityalong with Vaidya-Brahmin community.

    WE were discussing it in a blog-Indian/Chinese IQ puzzle where average IQ of Indian Hindu is 86 but Kulin Bengali Brahmin with 115-122,more than Ashkenazi Jewish.Considering our tiny population we are producing more laurels in USA compared to Ashkenaziwith Pulitzer winners,one of the greatest Biologist and inventor Anandamohan Chakraborty,A.Bannerjee(Nobel laureate signature award winner),inventors etc.
    Even Tagore or IVF pioneer Subhas Mukherjee came from Kulin Brahmin sect.

    Nice article.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Sampan, though I understand your pride in belonging to the kulin caste, I have to say that the high IQ and the genesis of the bengali renaissance at the hands of Kulin men, all have a direct relation to their access to education over the generations. Other castes were never given the opportunity for an education and thus they never developed a culture of learning. Even today MOST Brahmins fall in the category of educated middle class as opposed to industrialists or farmers or military.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Exactly. A very informative blog. Thanks a lot.

      Delete
    2. Tina I am Uday Chakravarty . I am Scientist in RRCAT Indore. We have always lived outside Bengal, so I am not very sure of my lineage. I have heard from my jethu we were Sanyal and Vatsa gotta. Forefathers belonged to East Bengal. The place of our origin is slipping of my mind. Your descriptions matched well with mine so I am writing. Hope you will reply

      Delete
  4. I will not be posting comments here that I feel are racist/caste-ist. As this is MY blog, I get to make these "judgement" calls! There is a thin line between expressing pride in a communities' achievements and implied disrespect for those not belonging to said community. Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  5. All Chakraborty are not brahmin surname. Few kshatriya family is having the surname Chakraborty, are rajput kshatriya, the surname Chakraborty given by the Bengal Rajas. Like we are kshatriya and our surname is Chakraborty. We brought from Rajasthan as senapati to protect the Bengal Raj from outside enimy. So all Chakraborty are not brahmin.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am from rajasthan I would like to know about your family lineage. ..I am told some people /rajput sardar from our extended family went to Bengal orrisa n settled there.. .

      Delete
  6. Chakraborty means king of the king , the ruler of the country. So Chakraborty surname belongs to kshatriya of upper class. I am Chakraborty but belong to a kshatriya family not brahmin. Chakraborty surname given by the Raja of vardhaman (Bengal).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chakraborty, in my case is an honorific from the British times, I believe my paternal ancestry originally went by the name Sanyal as mentioned in the article.

      Delete
    2. Tina, I am a Chakrabarty of Gargya Gotra. I am unable to find my original surname anywhere. Any idea ?

      Delete
    3. Tina, I am a Brahmin Chakrabarty of Gargya Gotra. I am unable to find my original surname anywhere. Any idea ?

      Delete
  7. I did not know that all Chakrabortys were not Brahmins! I know there were non-Bengali Chakrabortys though :- )

    ReplyDelete
  8. Tina, apt reply to the obviously "caste supremacist " remark by "Sampan". Basically he is hinting that all intellectual work in in Bengal is by the Brahmins as they are genetically predisposed to having a higher IQ than other castes !. Obviously this guy is in US now and is desperately trying to find reasons to "justify" his own perception of the Brahmin caste being superior to other humans as the most intelligent of all the immigrants .

    ReplyDelete
  9. Supriyo Chaudhuri. Pune IndiaJune 7, 2014 at 6:29 AM

    Sampan has raised the issue of IQ, and what surprises me is that in a way she has attributed the Bengali Renaissance to the higher IQ of the Kulin Brahmins. Sounds a bit simplistic. The concept of IQ is the product of the white civilisation of the West. Like all ideas it is culture bound. One who does not have a high IQ score cannot be called unintelligent, say a tribal from Africa. There are lots of intelligent people amongst them. We have to free ourselves from these cultural stereotypes Supriyo Chaudhuri, an MBA from IIM Calcutta and an Applied Behavioural Scientist

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 👍 I m border area rajput n I see the same people on the other side of border are still living in medieval Era so it's just different levels of awareness ...information is not knowledge after all.

      Delete
  10. My surname is Roy and my father is from Bengal. What caste would Roy belong to?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Like the post above says, surnames like Roy, Choudhury, Chakraborty etc. were titles granted by the kings of Bengal to prominent (most often Brahmin) family. To find out your gotra you would need to know what surname the family had before the grant of the "Roy" title. But, on a guess, I would say your family probably belongs to the Brahmin (priest) caste, though there is a chance they could be Kayastha (or Kshatriya), the military caste.

      Delete
    2. I am not very sure about the Gotra. It could be Bharadwaj or Aladoshi. Could you provide more information on these gotras?

      Delete
    3. Not really, I am really no expert. Good luck in your search.

      Delete
    4. No problem Tina. Thanks a lot!

      Delete
    5. Bharadwaj is a brahmin gotra...so u may be a brahmin

      Delete
    6. Bharadwaj is brahmin gotra..

      Delete
  11. My Surname is Puitandy and my Gotras is Bashyap, I belong Brahmin Family. so what is my Original surname?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Like I said above, I am no expert and I cannot answer your questions pertaining to the details and history of each name. But best of luck with your search. You might have a ask a real expert at Hindu society or temple.

      Delete
  12. I like this site...very nice, I hear one part of my family was Kulins...than was until 1800 A.D.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Nice explanations. But we should shed this kulin differentiation.

    ReplyDelete
  14. hi,tina,thanks for the information,i am a choudhury and i came to know that we are snayal(vatsab) and we are from bangaladesh,could it be possible that we rarhi not barendra?
    thanks and regrds
    utsav

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. no sanyal is a rari they settled in Barendra bhomi and are all barendra........

      Delete
    2. I admit this is confusing for me too. I am told we are Rahri, but my father's of Sanyal (vatsya gotra) decent. He is also definitely from West Bengal not Bangladesh... There is some confusion about the stream. Mostly if anyone wants to share knowledge here and inform us all, that would be just fine.

      Delete
    3. barendrabhoom means west bengal,right?But I am pretty sure that my father side is from bangladesh

      Delete
    4. barendra bhumi is not part of west Bengal, the barendra bhumi is ancient area of east bengal now bangladesh - - north area of east Bengal as districts of Bangladesh - - pabna, rajshayi etc.

      Delete
    5. I am also Sanyal of Vatsav gotra. We are originally from Bangladesh. As far as I know all Sanyals are Barendra Brahmins and not Rahri..

      Delete
  15. Hi I found the below interesting....
    there is one confusion in many people who are not really following ancient scripts rather they follow on data compiled during british period.unfortunately in this period many classes of people started ditching each other rather than scholarly discussion. In fact the first attack on "sista kayastha/kuleen kayastha/ brahma kayastha" is by none other than kalhan rajatarangini compiled in kashmir probably in 1100 AD in which it omitted/ disagreed kayasta as part of brahmins then onwards this debate initiated. many attempts are made to tamper the kayastha status by rest of people for nothing. in fact i would like to share some more informtion that sista kayastha has got rishi gotras amd pravara just like rest of brahmins in india where as kshatriya people has got limited rishi gotras and many are prajapati gotras and vysya has neither rishi gotra nor prajapathi gotra. sudra doesn't have gotra as described in our ancient gotra system.

    brahm kayasth/sista kayasth are from eastern part of india that is bangla are descibed in ancient scipts like padma puran,kurma puran&bhavishya puran,brihannaradeeyam,ujwaram etc scripts which are several thosands of years old than "lalhana rajatarangini". these group belongs to father brahmin-mother kshatriya girl clan as described in vipra vamsa clearly confirms there gotras as brahminical sice we follow "pitru-lineage"/father lineage.

    "teshaam vai satrastra bhedena datta sarmeti chochyateh" - bhavishyottar puran means those learned people in astra vidya/dhanurveda(part of yajurveda) call them selves as datta and/or sarma
    it is also clear that they are literate people in ancient india and worked as feuderators,ministers,accountants,and other revenue posts for a long time in history.this also supports that they are educated (means those time education is "ashram education with veda,khagola satra,maths,jyothish etc specialities" where sudra are not permitted to enter in ashram education). as an example i can use kalinga dynasty belongs to 700AD where kayasythas are very active in all key positions in kingdom many times better than other castes including so-called brahmins.
    i hope you understand this and i also want to mention that i am no way connected with this group of bengalis and am a south indian brahmin hence no specific interest in upgrading brahm kayastha/sista kayashth group.

    i also request people to go by old texts than books compiled during british india period(in which most of the data mis-represented/mutilated/under-rated aimed to decrease indian heritase and culture as well as to hit certain learned classes in India

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, feel free to share info here if you find it. I no longer live in India and since I am a woman, I no longer belong to the caste either since I married a Canadian.

      Delete
  16. @Tina nice article thank you.Please add Bhaduris under Barendra heading.Thank you once again

    ReplyDelete
  17. Nice article... Will definitely encourage my family to read about their own ancestry.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Hi can you please tell me what caste is Ray in bengal...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Refer to a query above regarding Roy surname. Roy and Ray are likely the same name spelled differently in English... But an honorific and thus not indicative of a gotra or clan.

      Delete
  19. Do all mukherjees have same gotra ie bharadwaj??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think so. Perhaps ask some older relatives for confirmation. Since that surname is not an honorific, it does indicate a clan (gotra).

      Delete
  20. Great post @Tina. My last name is Roy, and this blog certainly provides more clarity around the debate that my brother and I always have. He claims that my father (who passed away a few yrs ago) told him that we are chakroborthys, although my father had told me that we are Sanyals.. This blog basically means we could be both!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Isn't Internet great! It's totally possible. The only way to check for sure would be to check temple marriage records. I hear Puri Jaggannath temple kept very detailed records over generations... Not sure how.

      Delete
  21. Dear all, Namaste to everybody!
    I am a Brahman from Maharashtra (one of the Pancha-Dravida) but researching on Brahmins is my pastime.
    I first of all congratulate the lady who runs this blog for her help in rediscovering the heritage of our Brahmin Varna in particular and Hindus in general.
    The views of most of you are quite accurate and I also feel that older texts are to be followed, not British time records.
    My enquiry:
    1. Where could the Assamese Brahmins originate from? They also call themselves Kannujiyas / meaning, Kaanyakubja of the Pancha Gauda. Assamese Brahmins have surnames that sound both Sanskrit-based (Bhattacharya / Bhattacharjee, Sarmah, Gosain, Panda, Chakravarti, etc.) and Ahom-origin (Barua, an upadhi from the tai-Ahom language).
    2. The classes of Manipuri Brahmins is also originally Bengali Brahmin. Manipuri Brahmins have surnames like Sarma (Sharma) and Chakravarti.
    3. Who are the Vaidya / Boidya Brahmins? Their gotra is Dhanvantari. Aren't they with the surnames like DasGupta (not Das though), SenGupta, Sen, SenShrama (as in Konkona SenSharma), Sharma, Barat, Gupta, DuttaGupta, etc... This means th Boidyos and King Balla Sen shared the same surname, so was the king Ballal Sen a Boidyo?The Sens were Baidya - right? Why were they called untouchable-yet-Brahmin? I was told that the Boidyas considered themselves the first important to be symbolically eligible to have their feet touched by others, but not actually allowing the touching to happen because of the so-called untouchability (they treated patients), to maintain notions of purity. Of course, today, many Boidya people are often seen to be the most Communist.
    4. What are the classes of the Kulin Benglai Kayasthas? What are the origins of the non-Kuleen Kayasthas?? Do they share caste affinity with the Assamese kalita?
    5. What is the case of upadhis surnames like Biswas, Dey, Nag, Dam, Das? In adjoining Odisha, the title Das or Dash could belong to any caste.
    6. Who are the Bengali Kshatriyas? The Kayasthas? The Manipuri Bishnupriya community has the syrname Singha, also adopted by the Manipuri Meiteis, and they call themselves Kshatriya, but the Bishnupriyas aren't from outside India they are Indo-Aryan. They migrated to Eastern Bengal; many still maintain the distinctness of their language and traditions, but some have started calling themselves Bengali. Many Bishnupriyas use the Singha surname. I met a Bengali Rajput from East Bengal; he was a Singha. COuld these Bengali Rajputs be the Bishnupriyas Manipuri Kshatriyas who started identifying themselves with Bengalis?
    7. What connection do Bengali Brahmins have with Arakanese Brahmins of the Arakan province annexed to Myanmar and later separated from India in 1935? Many Arakan Brahmins are poojaris in Burmese Buddhist temples.
    8. A Barendro person told me that their origin is from Rajasthan. While another Chakravarti told me, they are originally from SOuth India. Hema Malini was a Chakravarti Iyengar Brahmin, while Mithnun Da was a Bengali Chakravarti. I belive Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did ghar-wapasi of Bengali / other Hindus and made them acquire their original pre-conversion Hindu banes / jaati. I think it was a good thing.
    9. To which Jaati of Varna did the Hindu king of Jessore belong to? My respects to his Hindu resurgence.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. chakravartis are basically sanyal - - barendra kulin brahmin - - vats / batsab gotra no south connection

      Delete
    2. Listen, Shantanu. You must be wrong. Chakrabartys hail from many Gotras. They simply all cannot be Sanyals. I am a Chakrabarty from Gargya Gotra. What is my original surname ?

      Delete
  22. nice post ,i also never paid attention to this factors until my marriage time when my mom pointed on this factors ,very well researched article ..

    ReplyDelete
  23. to which caste surname bose belongs to?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bose is usually Kayastha. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulin_Kayastha

      Delete
  24. Hi everyone...my surname is Chakraborty but my original surname Shanyal,gotra vatsav...can u plz tell me am I a kulin Barendra Brahmin ???? thank you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, right on all points. Just like my family.

      Delete
  25. I am trying to find out about my family lineage. My dad's name is Moitra. He's always said we were Brahmins but I gather we may be Kayastha which is an undefined caste...anyone can help?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My mother's maiden name was Maitra (just a different spelling) and they were most definitely kulin bramhan afaik.

      Delete
    2. Thanks - do you know how i can research the family tree in India? I have been very curious to understand this side of the family :)

      Delete
    3. asking older family members works especially ones that were married in the traditional style with astrological charts, also sometimes referred to as Gotras.
      Asking at temples like Puri-Jagganath temple in Odisha.

      Delete
    4. Hello Tina,
      I am Sanyal (Vatsav Gotra) married to a Chakraborty (Chatterjee originally, Kashyap gotra). Read this interesting Blog. I think we are all looking for our roots in these caste names.
      I joined this discussion to tell you that Kulins are Brahmins who never left the Kul (clan). Brahmins who defied the prevailing caste norms of the day (like marrying outside it) were denigrated to being 'Kaafs'. I do not know what it means, but a Kaaf is not a Kulin. So all Barendra or Rarhi Brahmins are not Kulins. I know that my paternal ancestors were not.
      Saw a query about a Moitra (Maitra) being a Brahmin. As you have explained in your Blog, Maitras are among the five families of Brahmins in Barendrabhoomi (broadly, Rangpur, Rajshahi, Mymensingha in the sub-Himalayan region I would assume, to down to Nadia - Shantipur in the Gangetic plains).
      The Mitras, however, are Kayasthas, second in the caste hierarchy in Bengal - usually landed gentry, like the Basus and Ghoshes.
      Cheers, Madhumita

      Delete
    5. Are surnames really needed? It is totally gender biased. We generally do not take our mother's surname. Even we take our mother's surname , it is our maternal grandfather's.

      Delete
  26. can you tell me NATH surname is which general caste

    ReplyDelete
  27. es known as very wel, majumdar is brahmin surname due to one upon time they were landor of barendra bhumi exp pabna and majumdar is Barendra Srani Shyam Veda vatsa Gotra brahmin

    From ancestors it come to know that,long ago Jamidar of Jamalpur Myemansingh was of Majumder surname ( Brahmin) one part of family celebrated Durga puja and the other majumder brahnin celebrated Jagadhatri puja.But at present ,the said families are very limited.Some of their descendants are most probably living at Kolkata , some are found North Bengal and Cachar dist. in Assam

    ReplyDelete
  28. Please only post your comments ONCE. They have to be moderated and will not appear here till moderation is completed. If they are found offensive, they won't appear at all.

    Comments submitted anonymously will no longer be published.

    Also please proof read your comments before submitting them. Let's keep the discussion civilized, thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I am Tarun Kr.Mazumder and I am belongs to Vatsa Gotra Shaya Vede Barindra Brahmin

    ReplyDelete
  30. Hi!! nice article.. could you plz help me in providing knowledge regarding dasgupta. Are they also brahmins? If yes, then what are their gotras?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi, I am Majumdar/Dasgupta/Das Sharma. The Dasgupta/Sengupta surname as belongs to Kuleen Vaidya/Boidya Bramhins. Practitioners of Ayurved as opposed to the Pujari Bramhins

      Delete
  31. Haii Tina...I want to know about majumdar surname with kashyap gotra, will you please explain anything about it... This title belongs to which category...

    ReplyDelete
  32. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Like I have said before, I'm not an expert on caste or got rats... The questions are best asked to Google.

    ReplyDelete
  34. in this blog I've found so many confusion regarding caste system in Hindu Bengali though in this Internet's era they are several research papers are available for removing doubt, just ask to Google in this way, origin of Bengali Brahman, Bengali surnames and their history,history of Bengali Brahman,whats rarh or barendra bhumi their geographical ancient existence, etc. or any question you can get lot of reply from various web sites

    ReplyDelete
  35. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Hi Tina, a good well-researched article. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  37. To feel pride of one's purity to Aryanism means to feel no remorse towards the millions on non-Aryan that were subjugated. Did they not families? Did they not give birth? Did they not have a little boy or a girl whose parents had to watch them be subjugated? Perhaps this is the reason why Islam managed to convert nearly 40% of the Subcontinent (160 milion in Banglades, 170 million in Pakistan and 180 million in India = 510 million) in just a few hunder yeas despite Hinduism being there for 40000 years! Keep in mind the Mughals were Turk/Mongol mixed, the Turk being from the same Central-Asian super-tribe as the Aryans

    Mati

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. People are people. Brahmins are no better than non-Brahmins, Hindus are no better than non-Hindus or agnostics or atheists. The only true determinant of humanity and goodness is how we treat people, especially people different than ourselves.
      This post, however, is not about celebrating a caste, its about knowing about oneself and the things that have shaped my family history. Both good and bad.

      Delete
  38. I am Mukherjee and I am getting married to Giri family. Can u please give some details about the Giri surname

    ReplyDelete
  39. Hi Tina
    My surname is Halder and as my father say we are kayastha ! Can you please help me to know my root .

    ReplyDelete
  40. Hey Tina thanks for posting this...Was generally curious as I'm too a half breed where after the passing away of my bengali bhattacharya mother was tracing my linkage out of curiosity...Good to know

    ReplyDelete
  41. Hey Tina thanks for posting this...Was generally curious as I'm too a half breed where after the passing away of my bengali bhattacharya mother was tracing my linkage out of curiosity...Good to know

    ReplyDelete
  42. I am a Roychowdhury (Zamindari title : Barisal District before Partition ) . Earlier surname is Sengupta (Bodhi) . Wanted to know the origin of the surname.

    Thanks in Advance

    ReplyDelete
  43. I am a gaur brahmin of Rajasthan, our origin is from Bengal(gaur). As I have heard that we left Bengal after the fall of king sasanka of gaur. Do you have any info abt this.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Hey my Name is Diptanu Chakraborty belonging to Bharadwaj Gotra. My family originally were from Bangladesh. So any idea what were our original title?

    ReplyDelete
  45. Very informative post although I got one question. How do you use aryan migration theory here? It has been thoroughly debunked for a long time now. It was mostly propagated by early govt scholars to fuel discrimination for aryan and dravidians, both of which have been proved non sense. Genetic Research shows that it was the original indians who migrated to Europe and Central asia and not the other way.

    Other than That I find your classifications pretty accurate as per what I have found as per my studies+ Family history.

    ReplyDelete
  46. hii tina ! i am tuhin chakraborty. ( i am actually ganguly , my family was got the title 'chakraborty' by zamidari + puja of hindu god's.my family are from gopalganj sub. division of bangladesh. in present we are live in india ) my gotra is 'basyav gotra ' . you know which type of brahmman we are ? (barendra / rarhi )

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The common surnames of Barendra brahmin family are (ranked equally):

      • Sanyal (Vatsav/Vatsya)

      • Lahiri (Shandilya)

      • Bagchi (Shandilya)

      • Moitra (Kashyap)

      Delete
    2. add up Bhaduri (Bharadhwaj) they are Barendra too

      Delete
  47. I read it carefully and I am Rakesh Chaudhary (Dhaka gotra,JAT caste from Haryana).I wants to know ,Why King Billal Sen made Mata Dhakeshwari Tample and City Name Dhaka? Another last hindu king of Bhutan's Name Sindhu Raja and gotra was Sendhaka,even he changed name of Dichau riwar as Jaldhaka.
    As per Maratha history ,we are brahm-kshtiya and decendant of King Virudhaka of kanshi koshal latar they were known as Sena vansh (Sena means kshtriya in pali langauge, Buddhist langauge).
    Now all Jats are telling us Dhaka Bangala.My Mother's Gorta is Barman (In haryanavi langauge Birhman).
    One of our acendant Vichitra Deva (Military Commandor of Chandel king accupied Gwalier Fort in 950 upto 1008)His Son Udey bhanu Deva helped to save Punjab as well as Ajmer from Mugal's.
    What is the actual root of our Gotra. If Billal Sen was Baidya than ,Who we are?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Nice blog, very informative. I am a Choudhuri from Bengal (I follow my father's spelling although my brothers and sister write Chowdhury). We were Sanyals originally (Varendra; Vatsya gotra). I guess my forefathers got the last name as a title from someone powerful at the time. Obviously the title was more prestigious than the Brahmin last name!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Nice blog; very informative. Thank you. I am a Bengali Choudhuri (I follow the spelling used by my father; my brothers and sister write Chowdhury). Our original last name was Sanyal (Varendra; Vatsya gotra). One of my forefathers got the title as a badge of honor. So, the title Choudhuri became more prestigious than the original Brahmin last name!

    ReplyDelete
  50. What is caste of Nath

    ReplyDelete
  51. Hi Tina,
    Nice reading. I am a Sengupta from Ahmedabad, Gujarat. My ancestors hailed from Murshidabad.
    Can you please enlighten me about Sengupta lineage?Thanks..............

    ReplyDelete
  52. Hello my fellow curious ladies and gentlemen !

    I want to be sure about my original surname and shreny(varendra/rarhi/other)

    I know that we are
    Chakravartty
    from the Bharadwaj clan
    followers of Samaveda / Samved

    But have doubt about of my original surname and shreny, since my family don't take these things Seriously.

    My uncle says that my grandfather told him that we are Mukherjee since we are from Bharadwaj gotra.

    Also we all know that we have been residing in the Rarhi shreny in Bangladesh for the last 5 generations(excluding me) although we all know actually we migrated from Varendra shreny before that and call ourselves Varendra.

    My question can a Mukherjee be from Varendra / Barendra shreny?

    If yes, then how?

    If not, then what is the original surname of the Bharadwaj Brahmin people from Varendra Shreny who follow Samaveda /samved?

    As far as I know The title Chakravartty is not an original surname.
    My great grandfather didn't use Chakravartty. Although his forefathers used Chakravartty. He used Pandit (it's different from the West/North Indian word for Brahmins. Here it means a wise person and a Kayasth can also be a Pandit) Pandit and Mahapandit titles were given in the British period in Bengal.

    so what is my real surname?
    I'm really sad.
    Also tell me what makes a Chakravartty a Chakravartty, I searched in Google, it's showing the literal meaning but saying the title is used in a metaphorical sense. What does that even mean?

    ReplyDelete
  53. Mera surname Das hai main Bengali hu mera god father bangladesh Dhaka main tha mera gotra sandaliya hai aap bataye mera jati aur varna kiya hai please

    ReplyDelete
  54. Can some goswami is also chakrabarty ???

    ReplyDelete
  55. Myself a Bhattacharya - Barendra- originally Sanyal - Batsya Gotra. Forefathers came from Faridpur (now Shariatpur) District of Bangladesh.

    ReplyDelete
  56. My name is Rumi. I would like to know whether "Dhole" surname belongs to Barendra Brahmin community while Gotra is Vatsab. Is it really true that erstwhile 'Dhole' surname holders were 'Sanyal'? Kindly educate me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I know a 'Dhole' family who were earlier Sanyals. yes they are Barendra, vatsya gotra.

      Delete

About Me

My photo
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
I am a forty-something mom of two girls, an architect by profession and an avid sci-fi and My Little Pony fan. I love to cook, but only occasionally and am in the middle of rediscovering my heritage through food.